VM 3.07 'Of Vice and Men' L/V Thoughts

[arabian]

Here is my new batch of analysis for the Logan/Veronica scenes in the last episode as seen (or will be seen) in The LoVe Shack Breakdowns.

I'd like to begin this with a warning ... if you did not find anything (or much) wrong with Veronica's attitude and/or treatment of Logan in this episode, don't read this. I did find much wrong and try as I might I couldn't not rake her over the coals. To be honest, I didn't want to write this analysis .. it was too painful to think too deeply about. I want to love Veronica and I've loved most of what we've gotten in regards to LoVe this season. This episode pretty much ripped that all to shreds for me. Damn you, Rob! {Sigh} Just a warning. (There is also profanity.)

Scene One: Have a Little Faith

I don't understand Veronica. I truly don't. I get that she is upset that he's not telling her something, but to avoid him? To stay with another guy (platonic or not) and then to taunt him with her secretive whereabouts? To suggest that it's completely unfathomable to just trust that he doesn't want to tell her because he knows pain will come of it? What is wrong with her? He's her boyfriend and yet she treats him like he's a terrible person. How dare he not tell her every single facet of his life? Because she does for him? Does anyone honestly think that she told him that she bugged his car? Of course not. Why wouldn't she tell him? Perhaps because it was a stupid, stupid, paranoid thing to do and his knowing about it would only upset him and cause a rift between them. Why is it okay for her keep things from him? Why is it okay for her to ignore him for days? Why is it okay for her sleep in a room with a guy in her sleeping apparel, but she's completely justified in being upset with him for not telling her something that really has no consequence for them and will only cause her upset.

Stepping away from this scene for a bit -- but I will come back to why it relates -- I want to expound on the whole sleepover. Regardless of the type of sleepwear she wore -- it was sleepwear. There is an implied intimacy in wearing the things you sleep in and that is why a person doesn't walk around in sleepwear in front of non-family or people they're not sleeping with! It sends a message. Period. Furthermore, Veronica has a boyfriend and when putting the two together it can very much be read that Veronica was sending that message to Piz (unintentionally or not) that while she may have a boyfriend, they are not 100% solid and the possibility of a hook-up with someone else is not out of the question.

Piz is barely a friend and, yet, she's spending the weekend with him? Because that's what she did. Some viewers may buy that she's oblivious to his crush and instead believe that Veronica Mars is suddenly THAT stupid, however, it still doesn't fly. A single girl (especially one with a boyfriend) does NOT spend the weekend with an unattached guy. It just isn't done unless you are sending the above message. And that is what was so wrong with the Piz/Veronica scenes. Everything Veronica did in that scenario once Piz showed up was something that you just don't do unless you are sending signals.

And this relates to this confrontation between Veronica and Logan because it illustrates how completely wrong Veronica is. She is giving Logan a hard time, ignoring him, taunting him, judging him and ... all the while she is essentially living with another guy. I don't care that Meryl showed up -- Meryl wasn't expected to show up. Veronica made the decision to stay alone with an unattached guy who has a crush on her ... stay in the same room with him, walk around in her sleepwear in front him (product placement bedamned, it's the fucking principle of the matter!), and just hang with him. There are simply no words. I truly cannot fathom how anyone can justify what Veronica did as anything other than being a really, *really* terrible girlfriend.

Here's Logan -- who at this point, has done nothing wrong other than not wanting to share an incident in his past (that does not have ANYTHING to do with her) in order to spare her some pain -- waiting outside her class for her, trying to talk, to discuss, to make things right and she's giving him attitude because he dared to not tell her something that he was clearly very uncomfortable telling her. Forget love, forget trust ... what about respect? If Veronica chose not to tell Logan something and he threw a hissy-fit in her face, ignored her for a few days, and spent the weekend with a girl, Veronica would be all over his ass for daring to judge her, for not trusting her, for cheating on her, for not understanding. But Logan does it and he's evil incarnate. What the fuck, Veronica?! I've had issues with her character in regards to Logan before, but this takes the cake. And honestly, as annoyed as I've been in the past, I've been able to pull some kernel, some semblance of logic to explain WHY she's acting the way she is. This time? Nuh uh, she's just being a judgmental, hypocritical bitch and to that I say fuck you, Rob Thomas and fuck you, Phil Klemmer.

Scene Two: He Doesn't Trust Her ... and With Damn Good Reason

Before I get into the negativity, I did want to take a moment to appreciate Logan sleeping. Aww. Too bad Veronica couldn't do the same. Would it have killed them to give us a second or two of Veronica watching him, realizing that she was going to hurt him, and savoring the beauty of him so peaceful before she went in for the kill? Obviously not. {Sigh}

So, we know Mercer's alibi -- and it IS horrific ... in terms of MERCER! Not Logan. No, I'm not saying that there was nothing wrong with what Logan did. Of course not. He didn't stick around to make sure that everyone in the burning hotel was safe. What Logan did was bad, really bad. However, there WERE *truly* extenuating circumstances. He was wasted, very wasted and when the fire started, probably in the stages of a not-so-pleasant hangover, as well as being woken up from sleep -- an alcohol (and possibly) drug-induced sleep. Obviously, it's not an excuse, but it makes his actions more understandable and I think had Veronica not made it so clear that she judges every little thing he does, he would have told her. And here's where I once again requote what I wrote in the President Evil analysis because this scene absolutely proved the truth of it.

Quote:

---

Logan doesn't trust Veronica. As much as she doesn't trust him, he doesn't trust her ... with his heart. The lack of trust is about how Veronica can hurt him and it's much more direct and immediate. She could just break his heart all over again ... so easily by not trusting him, not loving him.

[The events in season two] seem to have finally (FINALLY!) firmly woke him up to the consequences of actions and how very much they hurt, not just others, but himself as well. And so here we are, he and Veronica are together once more and truly making a go at it, but he knows that she doesn't trust him and he doesn't trust her with his heart. He doesn't trust that if he messes up again, she won't walk away, breaking his heart yet one more time. And because he doesn't trust her, he's walking on eggshells, doing his damndest to not only NOT screw up so badly that he sends her running, but also walking on the eggshells of his heart. He's holding himself back because he knows now, he gets it. If he screws up, the consequences are that he'll get hurt ... again. Those are the consequences. And he feels, perhaps thinks that he knows, that if he puts his heart all out on the line again for her, knowing her, she'll leave him again no matter what he does. And the consequences of that are that this time he may be broken beyond repair.

---

And here we have it. He put himself out there again and she stomped all over his heart ... hurting him. Veronica doesn't trust him and he doesn't trust her to be there for him. And she proved him right unequivocally. She avoided him, was bitter towards him and then actually blackmailed him instead of just accepting that this wasn't something he wants to or is ready to share. That was a horrible thing of her to do. She BLACKMAILED him. That was wrong and once again the writers succeeded in how they wrote Veronica in making her look a little worse than Logan (as in the gambling vs. the tracking in Wichita Linebacker).

So, yes, it was pretty bad what Logan did, but let's look at those extenuating circumstances. This took place over the summer when he was still reeling from all of the events that had happened a few months before, totally wasted and/or hung-over and so he reacted poorly -- this 18 year old boy, again, he's an 18 YEAR OLD BOY! who has never had any moral guidance -- to a situation that would leave many healthy adults flummoxed. Of course, he doesn't want to tell his judgmental, paranoid girlfriend. He wants her to love him and hell, look at him the way she did Duncan or, how about even Wallace? After all, he was in a similar situation (as someone pointed out on another board). Logan taking off after the fire was awful, but it was not that much different than Wallace being in the car with a hit and run driver and taking off. What is different is the circumstances. Wallace was in the United States, sober and not just woken up. Logan, on the other hand, was drunk and/or hung-over, in a foreign country with scary jails -- where he would likely still be had he not run. Oh, and he's her boyfriend and has been there for her more times than anyone on the planet (except for Keith). Veronica's reaction to Wallace? Supportive. She frowned and then offered comfort and support to him -- Wallace, who KNEW that someone was hurt and still took off. Is it too much to ask she do the same for her boyfriend? Offer support, understanding, even while expressing her disappointment with what he did? I don't think so. Obviously, Veronica does.

Logan wants her to trust him, believe him and have faith in him, but he knows that it isn't the case. He knows that if he screws up (big or small -- and, yes, this was big), he has to start all over again, back at square one because she judges him on a standard that she holds to absolutely no one else. Of course, he doesn't want to tell her. He loves her and doesn't want to lose her.

Scene Three: Bonding in the Doghouse

I'm including the Keith/Logan phone call here because it showed a wonderful symmetry (albeit not such a happy one) between the two main men in Veronica's life. It was also nice seeing that just as Keith can (and did) call Logan to find Veronica, Logan feels comfortable enough in his relationship with "Mr. Mars" now to do the same. And that's lovely.

Scene Four: Piz Be Gone ... Now!

I was actually willing to give Piz a chance and while I've been annoyed with him prior to this episode, I didn't actively dislike the character. Well, his final scene here actually shot him right past dislike and into burning, no-going-back hatred. Seriously. After that oh so obvious smug cheering going on in the inside while facing Logan in the doorway? He is dead to me. His character could do nothing now that could endear me towards him. Nothing. He is dead to me. I've read some justification that of course the reason he did so was because he likes Veronica so of course he is going to give her boyfriend the impression that something could have happened. My response: So? That just confirms what a complete sleazy scumbag he is. Just because he had a reason -- to speed on the break-up of a relationship because he has the hots for a girl he barely knows -- doesn't justify squat.

And an interesting note: He wasn't hyper; he wasn't stumbling, he wasn't acting like Piz normally does. He was cool and calm with a streak of smugness there. And since he has no desire to make Logan like him (unlike Wallace and Veronica -- for presumably different reasons), that makes it seem like this is the real guy when he's not putting on an act. So is THIS who the guy really is when he isn't trying to impress someone? (Think of it, we've only seen him in scenes with Veronica, Wallace and Trish ... all people he wanted to like him.) I honestly do not understand how anyone could watch that scene and not see Piz in the worst light possible. And it certainly didn't help that Jason Dohring delivered so much of Logan's pain with his body language, facial expression and vocal intonations. Woobie Logan. Death to Piz!

Ugh, hate!

Scene Five: Logan ... My Hero!

Ignoring the cliché and the contrivance, I guess we can rejoice in that we can once more bring out the "Logan ... my hero!" placard.


Hmm, maybe this time it will actually stick for Veronica? I doubt it. Why? Because nothing sticks with Veronica. It doesn't matter what anybody does, once Veronica makes up her mind about them, her opinion doesn't change. She may be dating Logan -- hell, she's sleeping with him -- but it doesn't change the fact that she doesn't trust him and he's always, *always* guilty until proven innocent. Just like Duncan's actions didn't change her opinion of him and Keith's actions won't (Thank GOD! In this case) change her opinion of him come the next episode.

Yes, I'm glad he rescued her and Dohring, again, did a wonderful job, this time showing Logan's fear and horror over the situation Veronica found herself in. But I just can't squee or get excited about it because it won't matter in the light of day. Logan is still the guy she doesn't trust. Sigh. Okay, so she doesn't trust him, but does she love him? I do think she does. The thing is that I think she loves him despite herself; she doesn't want to love him.

Which brings us to this whole, obviously inevitable Veronica/Piz hook-up. She wants to be with Logan, but she DOESN'T want to want to be with him, so she is checking out an alternative. (Yes, I do clearly see that Veronica IS interested (whether she admits it or not) because there's no other way to read the things many saw last week on top of what happened this week as anything other than Veronica testing the waters without even realizing she's doing so ... because she is doing so.) And I think that's what we got the summer before last too. She wanted to be with Logan, but she checked out as soon as possible because she had an alternative waiting and she is completely convinced that the good, "safe" alternative is what she really wants. I do believe that Rob Thomas feels that because Veronica DOES want to be with Logan (even if she doesn't want to want it) he's saying that "see, she does love Logan? She can't help it!" She may be thinking about being with Piz because he's the kind of guy she's convinced she should be with, but she can't stay away from Logan. I suppose that's supposed to make her interest in Piz okay and acceptable to the LoVe fanbase. Hah!

Bottom-line, yes, I do believe she loves him. However, I also believe that she is diligently keeping a part of her heart in reserve and grabs and holds onto every naughty thing (actual *and* potential) that Logan does as justification for when she manages to break away the next time from the love she feels for him. Veronica loves Logan, but she doesn't want to and as long as that is the story that Rob Thomas is telling (and Kristen Bell is acting out), we're in the doghouse alongside Logan.

Scene Six: Lessons Learned ... Yeah Right!

This final scene alternately thrilled and pissed me off. First the thrill: Logan AND Keith taking care of Veronica together. Woohoo!! Keith has clearly accepted Logan completely in Veronica's life -- unlike Veronica, he's not cutting him out at all. It really was so wonderful to behold. In addition, there was totally the squee moment of Logan not only sleeping at one end of the couch with Veronica stretched out, but also her feet were all blanket-wrapped and tucked under his crossed arms. Aww and Squee!!!!!!!!! That shot there was literally my favorite of the episode. Sigh. And before we get into the dissection of why I was upset with Veronica's voiceover, I do want to say that I did love that she put Logan and Keith (Logan and Keith!) in the same category as the people she loved, who loved her and were always there for her.

Which brings us to another round of what the fuck, Veronica?!?!

Veronica: I think we all learned a valuable lesson about faith.You give it to the people you love. But the people who really deserve it are the ones who come through even when you don't love them enough.

So, let me see if I got this right. It's okay to forgive someone because they love you and are always there for you, even if you don't love them as much? What kind of lesson is that? That she can walk all over Logan and Keith to her little heart's content, be a complete and utter bitch, hypocritical, judgmental and just plain wrong as long as she finds herself in a tight spot later and they come running to the rescue? She didn't learn shit. She treated them both like crap and I'll be shocked senseless if come the next episode -- and any other episode after that -- we see Veronica apologize for her treatment of them and stop doing the same over and over again. But she won't. Like I said above, once she makes up her mind about someone -- that's it. It's all fine and dandy for Keith, because I'm sure she'll just go back to loving and adoring him unabashedly, but for Logan it'll be back to the same 'guilty until proven' innocent treatment. Oh, joy.

Gah! What a difference one person makes. Wichita Linebacker was directed by Harry Winer and written by Phil Klemmer and John Enbom. Winer and Klemmer returned to direct and write (alone), respectively, this keeper. Oh, Enbom, you were missed ... you were very, very much missed.

Comments

[afrocurl.livejournal.com]

I'm far too tired to properly read this, but I think we've been talking enough about this for me to say that I don't blame you for these reactions.

Veronica, as a person, is being extremely difficult, and I don't fully understand it, but I'm going to take it and move on.

Given that situation for Veronica, I can't help but see all of these scenes as painful reminders of how much we really do want people to change, even when they won't.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I'm far too tired to properly read this, but I think we've been talking enough about this for me to say that I don't blame you for these reactions.

Thanks and can I say thank you for responding to these every week? It really is appreciated.

Veronica, as a person, is being extremely difficult, and I don't fully understand it, but I'm going to take it and move on.

I get that, but my frustration comes from whenever she is this way, we always take it and move on. She never learns, she never changes and it just made a complete mockery of ep 3.3 for (which I LOVED!). I'm so tired of just moving on -- when will she wake up!?!? It's not fun so disliking the main character and it pisses me off because I WANT to love Veronica as much as Logan.

Given that situation for Veronica, I can't help but see all of these scenes as painful reminders of how much we really do want people to change, even when they won't.

But do we really want that for the lead character on a struggling show? It's like Rob WANTS the show cancelled.

[afrocurl.livejournal.com]

I figure if I'm going to be in a fandom, I might as well be active about it...commenting is fun, too.

At this point with Veronica, as frustrated as I am with her personality, it seems to be her raison d'etre, and we can't really do anything about that. Unless she loses everyone that she really loves because she's being difficult, I don't see her changing (sad, yes, but in character.)

We don't really want that in the lead character on a struggling show, unless there is some grand scheme that we, the fans, aren't aware of.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

It sure as hell seems as if the main scheme is to break Logan and Veronica up so that Veronica can date Piz for five or six episodes and then miraculously wind up with Logan in the last five minutes of episode twenty.

[afrocurl.livejournal.com]

If that's the case...*headdesk*

T-minus 7 hours until I can ask about this situation with a certain someone...

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Seriously, Roz, I'm totally back in season two mode now: Expect the worst. That's the only way I got through it.

[afrocurl.livejournal.com]

I missed most of that as I came into the show in the middle of S2, but oy, this is going to be hard.

If I can pry useful information, I will let everyone on my flist know.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

You're lucky you missed the horror of L/V fandom in early S2. Oy. Any news is good.

[afrocurl.livejournal.com]

I'll have news later today. I should be home in time to upload the pictures before too much longer.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Cool.

[zeenii.livejournal.com]

I'm so tired of just moving on -- when will she wake up!?!? It's not fun so disliking the main character and it pisses me off because I WANT to love Veronica as much as Logan.

You're speaking out of my heart. The whole LoVe thing in this episode just made me sad. I'm close to abandon my hope that Veronica will ever! change her views. And it pisses me off too that I don't like her this season. It makes me scream cause I don't want to hate her.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I know!! It really drives me crazy when some in fandom accuse Veronica-haters of just hating her because we love Logan. That is sooo not the case. I want to love Veronica, I want to adore her like I did in season one, but the writers and KB (yes, KB!) are doing their best to make it impossible. So much of the time she acts like a smug, self-absorbed, pretty, pretty princess and that may be Kristen Bell, but it is NOT the Veronica Mars I fell in love with.

Sigh.

[fishsanwitt]

Another great post!

I agree with you on everything. Not a surprise :)

I really didn't like Piz (God, I *hate* that name - it *always* sounds like 'piss' to me) at the door with Logan. I was all 'wtf?' as well.

I haven't seen anyone mention this, but, as I reading about Veronica (and her attitude towards Logan), I kept thinking how this whole LoVe thing resembled (for me) a lot of the Buffy/Spike relationship.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Well, you know how I feel about B/S so I couldn't say. And just comparing Logan and Spike hurts my heart, so ... I don't go there. But Veronica is just such an unlikeable bitch and Piz is just horrific. And Rob Thomas is an idiot because clearly V is going to be dating Piz much of the last half of the season which is just so insanely ridiculous. Ugh.

[fishsanwitt]

We won't go there with S/B :)

Yeah, I can see the way the wind is blowing for LoVe. And it sucks.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Royally.

[soul-of-dreamer.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts are justified. I agree with your reactions especially towards Veronica being difficult. I don't understand how she expects Logan to except her for trying and being the way she is and how she can't change but she in return can't do that with Logan and will always jump into conclusion and ready to blame him. I don't see how right and fair that is. It's one big hyprocrisy to me.

The whole Piz situation. I was never fond of him since the beginning,especially from the rumors that started that he was going to be a new love interest for her. Maybe if Rob and the other writers didn't start off throwing Piz into our faces in the first episode and have him drool over Veronica all over the place I might have given him a chance. I think they should have gradually introduced us to him if they really want the whole V/Piz pairing. But anyways, I do think we saw the real Piz, when Logan came to his door to ask where Veronica is. That was wrong and I was ready to hit him to wipe that smugness off his face. I'm sorry, just because you're interested in her doesn't mean jack, cause you don't really know her and her history, and he won't understand her moods, like Logan and everyone else who has known her will. I feel that Veronica is running again subconciously, she might say she's trying to say and she's wants to stay with Logan, but I feel her going to Piz is an escape. When she can't handle things she runs. She finds any outlet and she goes towards it. And it's sad.

As much as I love Love together, I want Logan to find someone who will appreciate him, all stupidity, jackass and all. Cause Veronica no matter how much she appreciates him after he saves her yet again, she disregards him the next few days and it kills me how she's slowly breaking him. I miss my jackass lol.

And I think I've rambled enough. That was my two cents and I love your breakdowns :)

[dawn-xx.livejournal.com]

As much as I love Love together, I want Logan to find someone who will appreciate him, all stupidity, jackass and all.
YES. That's why I wasn't really against HaLo.. Hannah accepted him. She didn't judge him; maybe that's why he wound up falling for her. I'm not saying she was RIGHT for him... he needs someone with a bit more of an edge. But she's the type of girl that would be better for him.

[soul-of-dreamer.livejournal.com]

Exactly! I wasn't fond of Hannah but she didn't jude him and accepted him faults and all. Maybe they will bring someone for Logan and get Veronica to see the "light"

[soul-of-dreamer.livejournal.com]

Instead of wasting the time on Piz (a completely unnecessary character)
That's what I don't understand, why they made Piz a main character and brought him on board. I thought it was pointless and a waste of time also. He takes away from the other characters that I would much rather see i.e., Wallace, Lamb, Mac and etc. And I do agree the writers do need to sit down and really take the time to write their plot instead of just throwing ideas around! It's wishful thinking for the LoVe fandom for them to actually sit and work on Logan and Veronica.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

chasezangel ... Thanks for commenting.

Sigh. I hate Piz and it's like the writers are trying to make me hate Veronica. I love Logan and yes he deserves someone who treats him better, but I would like that someone to BE Veronica. Take the time to write for her, to explore her issues and make her good enough for Logan (words I never thought I'd type during season one). Instead of wasting the time on Piz (a completely unnecessary character) or creating a new love interest for Logan -- work on Logan and VERONICA!!!

dawn_xx and chasezangel ... Gah!

Oh, see I hated Hannah and I don't believe he actually fell for her. I liked the idea of the story, but hated the execution. One ep she's an innocent who never dated, the next she's a raging sex maniac who wants to get it on. Whatever. And I thought the actress was terrible.

I don't think he fell for her, like I said above though. I think he fell for the idea of someone liking him, trusting him, believing in him (something he's never had) and she represented what that could be like. But Hannah herself? Another month tops and things would have been over.

True, she didn't judge him, but that's because she REALLY didn't know him. She didn't, she was just a silly, little girl. Ugh. Hated her and the execution of the utterly cliched storyline.

[soul-of-dreamer.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with Piz being a completely unnecessary character. I don't understand why he's on the show, it takes away time from the other characters I rather watch i.e, Wallace, Mac, Lamb and etc...The writers do need to really sit down and take the time and work on LoVe, cause I hate what they are doing with their characters this season. Looking back I perfer them snarking at each other and being secret back from Season 1. I'll always want that someone to be Veronica, and if they are suppose to be break up, I want Logan to be the one to break it off this time, cause maybe it'll make Veronica start to rethink things. But of course this is wishful thinking in my part.

I didn't like Hananh either, she annoyed me but the idea of the story I understood and liked. Yes I agree with you I thought the actress was terrible, maybe if someone else did it and could act maybe just maybe I wouldn't have been annoyed with the character but yes it didn't make sense when one minute she was innocent and then the next she was this let's be all over each other.

I guess we can only hope that the upcoming episode things will start to look up which I'm a bit weary of, especially the previews for this week.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with Piz being a completely unnecessary character. I don't understand why he's on the show, it takes away time from the other characters I rather watch i.e, Wallace, Mac, Lamb and etc...

Yup. The reason he's there is because RT is stupid enough to believe that there HAS TO BE an alternative love interest -- which is, again, insanely stupid. I think I ranted about this elsewhere in my lj.

The writers do need to really sit down and take the time and work on LoVe, cause I hate what they are doing with their characters this season. Looking back I perfer them snarking at each other and being secret back from Season 1.

I actually loved THEM up to ep 6. I would have liked more snarking and passion, but the snarking toned down makes sense in terms of Logan being leery of Veronica leaving him and the passion, well, we're told it's there, but they just won't show us.

I'll always want that someone to be Veronica, and if they are suppose to be break up, I want Logan to be the one to break it off this time, cause maybe it'll make Veronica start to rethink things. But of course this is wishful thinking in my part.

Spoilers (whistles innocently).

I didn't like Hananh either, she annoyed me but the idea of the story I understood and liked. Yes I agree with you I thought the actress was terrible, maybe if someone else did it and could act maybe just maybe I wouldn't have been annoyed with the character but yes it didn't make sense when one minute she was innocent and then the next she was this let's be all over each other.

Right, the concept was great -- it was the execution that bit royal-monkey balls.

I guess we can only hope that the upcoming episode things will start to look up which I'm a bit weary of, especially the previews for this week.

Well, knowing spoilers, there is good, great, bad, horrible and a whole mix in between coming up. Sigh. And I'm not spoiled on this, but I'm completely convinced that we're going to have Veronica dating Piz for at least 4-5 episodes. Because Rob Thomas is evil and, I don't know, wants his show canceled. So frickin' stupid.

[soul-of-dreamer.livejournal.com]

Yup. The reason he's there is because RT is stupid enough to believe that there HAS TO BE an alternative love interest -- which is, again, insanely stupid. I think I ranted about this elsewhere in my lj.

Why does Veronica need an alternative love interest or needs to be attached with someone, if she's suppose to be this heroine you know. Sometimes I want to go to RT and ask why is it such a need for you to put Veronica with someone else, why can't she work out with Logan, granted being a in a relationship is rocky but come on the way they have showed us, is more rocky than good and the good they have cut it into a few segments/minutes.

I actually loved THEM up to ep 6. I would have liked more snarking and passion, but the snarking toned down makes sense in terms of Logan being leery of Veronica leaving him and the passion, well, we're told it's there, but they just won't show us.

I'm a bit peeved that they showed Hannah and Logan's "passionate" scene last season but we don't get to see it this season, we got more in the bathroom scene on season 1 and the flashbacks in season 2 then we did this season. The editing for this season sucks monkey balls...(sorry as you can tell I'm a wee bit tiffed and I just realized you used the same expression towards the execution of Hannah hahah). I do understand the why Logan has toned down bit cause of his leeriness of Veronica leaving him, but I feel he somehow lost himself. Maybe in the next few episode we'll see the fight in him again. I like that he's trying to change for her, but at the same time I don't want him to lose his touch, especially since it seems Veronica doesn't really seem to notice or care.

Ok I'm all curious now lol with that Spoilers (whistles innocently). Does that mean Logan will be the one to break it off and Veronica will end up rethinking things or something else...ahhhh my mind is running with possiblities lol

Well, knowing spoilers, there is good, great, bad, horrible and a whole mix in between coming up. Sigh. And I'm not spoiled on this, but I'm completely convinced that we're going to have Veronica dating Piz for at least 4-5 episodes. Because Rob Thomas is evil and, I don't know, wants his show canceled. So frickin' stupid.

I've been totally good this season about reading spoilers but it's starting to get harder, especially when I want to find out what's going to happen in regards to LoVe. See I'm afraid I might end up tuning out those episodes if they put them together, or tivo it which I will do anyways and just fast forward the scenes, I can't subject myself to watching them. Don't get me wrong the actor himself isn't bad, I just don't like the Piz character. This is going to be like Season 2 all over again, when I tuned out the scenes of VD and only watched when Logan and the others were on. Rob Thomas is evil. I just hope there's a turnaround for the rest of the season so we can look for a season 4, cause yeah I'm slighty disappointed. This is wishful thinking but maybe they won't put them together and just let him pine for her, but of course that won't happen. I'm a bit on edge on what's to come to LoVe now. lol

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Arrrgghhh!! I just wrote a long response to this and it was eaten for some reason.

Basically I agree with everything you said. And I also said that I'm now taking on my mantra from season two: expect the worst. Before every episode. That way you'll be thrilled with the good stuff and prepared for the crap stuff.

[soul-of-dreamer.livejournal.com]

Boo :( I hate when LJ does that.

Yeah I have to agree with you, I need to start thinking with that mantra cause if I don't I might actually achieve with pulling my hair out lol.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Yeah, save your hair, expect the worst. Sigh.

[airemay.livejournal.com]

I really like you analysis (coming here from the vmars community by the by) and I also liked this episode.

Veronica has issues. Spending the weekend with Piz in the room is a big no no, especially in her outfit. I hope that she apologize to Logan about that, or there is some dialogue about it. I don't think it should happen next episode... but they have more things to work out.

That being said, I don't mind disliking Veronica. I think it's a strong choice. I think it makes the show more interesting. Course, I love L/V in the same way I loved Buffy/Angel. B/A was epic. L/V shares that quality, and look at how B/A ended up. Ahh! I'm hoping for more character development from Piz. I like him, and I don't like him. Why hasn't Wallace said anything?? He's her best friend... unless he's oblivious to all of this.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I really like you analysis (coming here from the vmars community by the by) and I also liked this episode.

Cool, thanks for stopping by and commenting.

Veronica has issues.

Yes.

Spending the weekend with Piz in the room is a big no no, especially in her outfit. I hope that she apologize to Logan about that, or there is some dialogue about it. I don't think it should happen next episode... but they have more things to work out.

Somehow I doubt that will even come up. Sigh. Veronica and the show seems to act as if Veronica did nothing wrong. Double sigh.

That being said, I don't mind disliking Veronica. I think it's a strong choice. I think it makes the show more interesting.

Hmm, I can't say I agree. I mean she did illegal and amoral things in S1, but it was presented in such a way that I still liked her, nay, loved her. But now, I hate not liking her. I want to love her even when she's screwing up, but the way they're presenting her (and Bell is acting the part) I just want to slap the smug, self-entitlement off her face. Triple sigh.

Course, I love L/V in the same way I loved Buffy/Angel. B/A was epic. L/V shares that quality, and look at how B/A ended up. Ahh!

I'm in the minority as a Buffy/Xander fan. (I know.) But I see what you mean, both good and bad. Quadruple sigh.

I'm hoping for more character development from Piz. I like him, and I don't like him.

I was annoyed before, now I hate him. SO MUCH. Seriously. HATE. He is dead to me after that door scene.

Why hasn't Wallace said anything?? He's her best friend... unless he's oblivious to all of this.

That right there would be the brilliant storytelling and good use of characters and characterization by the Veronica Mars writing staff ... NOT!

[dawn-xx.livejournal.com]

......agreed. all of it.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Cool.

[leucocrystal]

Oh man, just... word, word, WORD to everything.  But if you've read my post, I'm sure that comes as no surprise to you, lol.

Logan, I just seem to love more and more with time, and that makes me a million kinds of happy.  But then there's Veronica, who I used to love, but who I now may actually be capable of hating.  God, what have they done to her? *cries*

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Ditoo, ditto, ditto!!!!!

[wyo-lynn.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind that I've followed your links from the Veronica Mars Fans community over here to your L/V thoughts.

Anyhow, I agree with so much of your analysis I wouldn't know where to start.

I do disagree somewhat with your take on Piz (horrible, horrible name for a long term character), I don't hate him, but if there are more scenes like that last one with Logan I seriously could. If we're supposed to like this character and see him as a viable alternative to Logan they've done him a huge disservice starting with mid-summer press saying he was a potential love interest for V to having him ask V out on a date when he KNOWS she's in a relationship.

On the other hand totally agree with your take on Veronica. I know the writers want her prickly, but they've gone past prickly to bitchy. And most it comes from her treatment of Logan.

What's undercutting Veronica's touted inability to trust Logan/anyone is she has given complete and unconditional trust/forgiveness to someone else, and that's Duncan (even when he didn't deserve it). If we hadn't seen her with this ability we might not expect her to cut Logan some slack. Even worse all her mistrust this season is coming across as manipulation by the writers and isn't growing organically from the story making it harder to swallow.

Sorry, if I'm a little long winded, mostly just wanted to say love your analysis and agree with almost all of it.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind that I've followed your links from the Veronica Mars Fans community over here to your L/V thoughts.

Oh, not at all. That's why I post the link over there. I generally don't get this much feedback though. It's great! :)

Anyhow, I agree with so much of your analysis I wouldn't know where to start.

So, we're starting with what you don't disagree with? LOL!

I do disagree somewhat with your take on Piz (horrible, horrible name for a long term character), I don't hate him, but if there are more scenes like that last one with Logan I seriously could.

Yes, horrible name. See that scene did it for me. I hate him. No going back.

If we're supposed to like this character and see him as a viable alternative to Logan they've done him a huge disservice starting with mid-summer press saying he was a potential love interest for V to having him ask V out on a date when he KNOWS she's in a relationship.

Yup. They've essentially done EVERYTHING wrong with this character (starting with his inception and casting, imo).

On the other hand totally agree with your take on Veronica. I know the writers want her prickly, but they've gone past prickly to bitchy. And most it comes from her treatment of Logan.

Right, prickly Veronica I can take. Hell, bitchy Veronica I can take -- when the recipient deserves it ... and when KB doesn't play her as a smug, self-entitled, pretty princess. KB may think she's perfect, that's groovy, but she needs to stop thinking that VM is KB. Because VM? Not perfect ... and we LIKE her that way!!!

What's undercutting Veronica's touted inability to trust Logan/anyone is she has given complete and unconditional trust/forgiveness to someone else, and that's Duncan (even when he didn't deserve it). If we hadn't seen her with this ability we might not expect her to cut Logan some slack. Even worse all her mistrust this season is coming across as manipulation by the writers and isn't growing organically from the story making it harder to swallow.

YES! YES! YES!!

Sorry, if I'm a little long winded, mostly just wanted to say love your analysis and agree with almost all of it.

You did read my analysis, right? Long-winded is my middle name. LOL (actually it's Lynne -- which I point out because of your screen name). Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts. :D

[wyo-lynn.livejournal.com]

Yup. They've essentially done EVERYTHING wrong with this character (starting with his inception and casting, imo).

See I have no issue with Piz as an addition to the show, nor CL's casting, (Wallace needed a roommate), but I think they made a fundamental error having Ausiello, Kristin at E!, KB and CL all commenting that Piz was a potential love interest. Way to make sure a good chunk of the fandom won't like the character and will watch his every move for signs that he's going to be part of the L/V break. Then they made it worse with Piz making cow eyes at V and pretty much nothing else. They'd have been better off just making him a well-rounded character and seeing where things eventually go, not start the season with him as the intential alternative to Logan. (besides you can't cast chemistry, you can think two actors might work out, but until you see it on screen you can't be saying this is a viable alternative for a relationship. And I don't see chemistry between CL & KB) Unfortunately this show is running in fast forward and skipping key character development. I blame that on the ratings and the writers never knowing how many, if any eps they'll get to tell their story. If episode numbers and ratings weren't an issue I'd hope that Piz wouldn't have been pushed into the L/V picture and we wouldn't be seeing the forced/anvilicious story telling we're seeing.

and when KB doesn't play her as a smug, self-entitled, pretty princess.

I do think a director needs to tell her to dial it back a notch. I didn't really see her as smug until this episode. It also doesn't help how KB is playing the scenes with Piz. The little glances and what not, if Veronica is truly oblivious to Piz those shouldn't be there. I know she doesn't like the L/V relationship (I think this is a product of her not watching the finished show and seeing more of Logan's non-Veronica story, because I think that's what makes viewers sympathetic to his character and willing to cut him slack. That and she's in love with the concept of the character Duncan, as opposed to how it actually played out on screen) but she shouldn't let that dislike color her performance when playing a scene with Piz. Though I will give her this, she sold that closing scene in WL and it was the first time I bought Veronica actually might love Logan.

You did read my analysis, right? Long-winded is my middle name. LOL (actually it's Lynne -- which I point out because of your screen name).

Long analysis is good, long winded comments when I'm a complete stranger saying hello for the first time, make me worry I'm being forward. That and my co-workers tease me that it takes me 3 paragraphs to cover a sentence. And Lynn(e) is a fabulous middle name as it's mine, hence the screen name :-)

[arabian.livejournal.com]

See I have no issue with Piz as an addition to the show, nor CL's casting, (Wallace needed a roommate)

I disagree. His roommate could have been just a Moe-type character. A recurring guy we see now and then. I mean, obviously, Piz barely interacts with Wallace now anyway and we see a helluva lot more of Piz than we do Wallace. And CL does nothing with the role to make it viable. Prior to the hated door scene in this episode, I didn't think he and Piz were a terrible addition, but I think totally superfluous.

, but I think they made a fundamental error having Ausiello, Kristin at E!, KB and CL all commenting that Piz was a potential love interest. Way to make sure a good chunk of the fandom won't like the character and will watch his every move for signs that he's going to be part of the L/V break.

Oh, I agree with that completely, but I don't blame the media outlets. I blame mostly (KB -- by FAR the worst offender), RT, CL and JD who all sold the love interest angle. The outlets were just reporting all that VM-crew were offering. If you look back at my rants, I actually had an entire lj entry all about the idiocy of that move.

Then they made it worse with Piz making cow eyes at V and pretty much nothing else. They'd have been better off just making him a well-rounded character and seeing where things eventually go, not start the season with him as the intential alternative to Logan.

Agreed. By setting him up as a love interest and having that be his only purpose, it's like they painted a bulls-eye on him. Especially when RT himself has said he believes that Leo/Hannah and their actors were hated SOLELY because of L/V fans not liking anyone coming between L/V (which is actually a ridiculous notion and shows how little he actually has a grasp on the fanbase).

(besides you can't cast chemistry, you can think two actors might work out, but until you see it on screen you can't be saying this is a viable alternative for a relationship. And I don't see chemistry between CL & KB)

Agreed. After all, KB and JD weren't cast to play a couple, it was KB and TD -- who again, have no chemistry.

Unfortunately this show is running in fast forward and skipping key character development.

Yup.

I blame that on the ratings and the writers never knowing how many, if any eps they'll get to tell their story. If episode numbers and ratings weren't an issue I'd hope that Piz wouldn't have been pushed into the L/V picture and we wouldn't be seeing the forced/anvilicious story telling we're seeing.

Oh, I disagree. He knew he had a full season last year and he did the same thing with V/D and L/H. This season, from all I know from behind-the-scenes, RT was SUPREMELY confident that the show would be picked up for a full season. Look at how he worked out the mysteries. 9/7/6 -- if he was REALLY worried about it, he would have set it up 7/6, 9. He KNEW he at least had 13 and he knew that if the show were canceled, a 7 or 6-ep arc would have a bigger chance being played out. No, that didn't come into effect for the ego that is RT at all.

I wrote: and when KB doesn't play her as a smug, self-entitled, pretty princess.

I do think a director needs to tell her to dial it back a notch. I didn't really see her as smug until this episode.

It's not constant and rarely more than a few scenes per episode, but it was so noticeable here because for the first time it was THROUGH THE WHOLE EPISODE!

(continued - stupid lj-comment-entry limited length)

[arabian.livejournal.com]

(continued from above)

It also doesn't help how KB is playing the scenes with Piz. The little glances and what not, if Veronica is truly oblivious to Piz those shouldn't be there. I know she doesn't like the L/V relationship (I think this is a product of her not watching the finished show and seeing more of Logan's non-Veronica story, because I think that's what makes viewers sympathetic to his character and willing to cut him slack. That and she's in love with the concept of the character Duncan, as opposed to how it actually played out on screen) but she shouldn't let that dislike color her performance when playing a scene with Piz.

YES!! It drives me crazy when actors are so unprofessional in such a way. (I've seen it happen with a few other actors). They get paid so much more than most professions, you'd think they could give it there all, but apparently that's too much to ask of the pretty, pretty princess. Blah! Phooey on her.

Though I will give her this, she sold that closing scene in WL and it was the first time I bought Veronica actually might love Logan.

Oh I know I was shocked. I thought she was WONDERFUL in WL. I wonder what was slipped into her drink that day? You know, though, that actually made HI and this one harder to take because she did her job in eps 4-5 and then 6 came along (with PIZ!) and it flew out the window. Smiling and simpering and trying to add an extra something in all of her scenes with CL, while playing cold and almost-bored with JD. Gah, I wanted to smack her. To be honest, I still do.

Long analysis is good, long winded comments when I'm a complete stranger saying hello for the first time, make me worry I'm being forward. That and my co-workers tease me that it takes me 3 paragraphs to cover a sentence. And Lynn(e) is a fabulous middle name as it's mine, hence the screen name :-)

It's all cool. Yeah, very few spell it like I do. My mom wanted to be different, I guess.

[hippiefishie.livejournal.com]

Veronica staying in a Piz/Wallace's room was really bad. One big thing that struck me as odd about that was wouldn't you think that Wallace would mention to Piz that he was letting Veronica crash in their room? When I first saw the scene where Piz came back, I totally thought that Piz knew Veronica was going to be there and THAT's why he came back early. Then he tried to blame it on Wallace being too uptight. And when Piz did show up, Veronica should have left!

PS. Your in depth analysis of the LoVe is fabulous.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Veronica staying in a Piz/Wallace's room was really bad. One big thing that struck me as odd about that was wouldn't you think that Wallace would mention to Piz that he was letting Veronica crash in their room?

Lazy writing, my friend. Lazy writing.

When I first saw the scene where Piz came back, I totally thought that Piz knew Veronica was going to be there and THAT's why he came back early. Then he tried to blame it on Wallace being too uptight. And when Piz did show up, Veronica should have left!

Absolutely!!!

PS. Your in depth analysis of the LoVe is fabulous.

Thank you very much. I appreciate you commenting.

[freezing-82.livejournal.com]

It's so gooood to come back here commenting your amazing analysis, you know?
I finally - FINALLY - got my internet connection back and a brand new notebook, so here I am.
I must say, I agree totally with you, except for the very last part, Veronica's faith voiceover.
I don't know if this is me talking or just my hope, but I think she realized she's not giving Logan the faith and love he deserves.
Btw, I'm really pissed off with her lately.
Why did they make us think, in the end of 'Wichita', that she really was trying to trust Logan's feelings and actions when up till episode 7 she clearly isn't?
Oh yeah, I'm also pissed at RT and the writers as well.
What I really need - I mean NEED, as air to breathe - right now, is Logan to break up with her, to make her feel for once exactly as he felt when she left him.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

It's so gooood to come back here commenting your amazing analysis, you know? I finally - FINALLY - got my internet connection back and a brand new notebook, so here I am.

I was wondering where you were, LOL!

I must say, I agree totally with you, except for the very last part, Veronica's faith voiceover.

If I hadn't hated the rest of the eps in regards to Veronica and L/V, I might not have been so harsh, but there you have it.

I don't know if this is me talking or just my hope, but I think she realized she's not giving Logan the faith and love he deserves.

I think she realized in that moment, but history has shown that the next time she's "tested" to trust and have faith, she'll fail miserably. She always does.

Btw, I'm really pissed off with her lately.

Join the club. Sigh.

Why did they make us think, in the end of 'Wichita', that she really was trying to trust Logan's feelings and actions when up till episode 7 she clearly isn't?

Because RT and co. have clearly never heard of character growth when it comes to Veronica Mars or anyone else clearly. Except for Logan and I give that edge to JD constantly trying to make Logan work with layers and of course, the "benefit" of RT insisting that Piz is the fun, funny, charming one, so therefore Logan couldn't be. With that, many are drawing the conclusion that Logan was actually affected by all that happened in season two.

Oh yeah, I'm also pissed at RT and the writers as well.

YUPPERS!

What I really need - I mean NEED, as air to breathe - right now, is Logan to break up with her, to make her feel for once exactly as he felt when she left him.

Spoilers are out there. That's all I'll say.

You nailed it

[tigereyes320.livejournal.com]

You nailed every aspect of this episode on the head. You can see the break-up coming from miles away.

What I want from the break-up is that Veronica has one of her epiphanies and realizes it's no ones fault but HERS that she lost Logan.

I wonder if we'll actually get that?

Re: You nailed it

[arabian.livejournal.com]

HAH!!!!!!! Never, I'm sure.