![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
arabianFor the most part. Just reading comments here and there over the last couple of months and finding myself thinking but I DO like that or I DON'T like that, and after writing up this quite, quite unpopular opinion re: Donna post, I was inspired to compile a list and am just now putting it up. Now, I know one is extremely unpopular, and one I found out after I wrote the list, edges more towards popular and my goodness, can I ramble? Anyhoo, the list in no particular order ...
- I actually quite like "Love & Monsters." I wouldn't put it in my top ten, and I know it's both Doctor and Rose-lite, but I still enjoy it. I like the story, I like Elton and I think that it's a fabulous little mini Jackie story. Plus, I love the few moments we do get with the Doctor and Rose.
- Here's the biggie: I don't really care about Jack. I do not understand for the life of me why he is SUCH a huge part of fandom, why an entire other show was built around him, etc. He's handsome, but nothing to write home about in my book; he a decent actor, but nothing to write home about. And I don't get the whole great, fabulous, amazing friendship between the Doctor, Rose and Jack. They traveled together for what really amounted to one episode: "Boomtown." And sure, they had travels in between, and were all buddy-buddy and rah!rah!rah! in said "Boomtown," but Mickey fit in pretty nicely with those three and yet I don't see OT4 fics with them. I just don't get it.
On that note, I pretty much despise the OT3 thing with Doctor/Rose/Jack. I just ... ick, it gives me the ickies. Just yuck. The Doctor belongs with Rose. Rose belongs with the Doctor. Jack can have a raging hard-on for either one all he wants, but for me, it's all on him, and Rose is into the Doctor, and the Doctor is into Rose and if Jack were to attempt to insert himself in the mix, they'd be as squicked as I am.
So, yeah, that one was the biggie, the major, 'that is SOOOOOOOOOOO unpopular.' Moving along.
- Due to forms of character assassination ranging from mild to OHMYGOD!GET THE HELL AWAY FROM MY SHOW!!!!, I've found that I only love "Blink" by Moffat. I love some of the moments in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" and do adore the overall concept, but the episodes themselves rub me the wrong way in light of Rose's characterization and some of the Doctor stuff too. I think that "The Girl in the Fireplace" is a gorgeously written, conceived and acted episode ... but one that does not even REMOTELY fit character-arc wise in RTD's Who. The less said about "Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead" the better, other than that the only thing I liked about it was the alternate Donna-verse, but everything else? Meh to Noooo. "Blink," though? I loved. (Like lots of others, I know.)
- I've said this before and I know I'm not the only one, but I'll still add it: I love Ten, but I do love Nine just that little bit more.
- On that note, I think that Eccleston has more chemistry with Billie Piper than does David Tennant. (And on the chemistry note, I don't see anything but BFF chemistry between Piper and Tennant in real-life ... at all, nothing hinting at some underpinning of longing, etc.)
- Donna is not just my favorite companion (I'm sorry, Rose, I do adore you, but Donna is just ... Donna), Donna is my favorite character EVER on Who -- yes, I love her more than the Doctor (Nine or Ten). In fact, Donna Noble may be one of my top five favorite characters ever in ANY fandom. EVER! I love her so much.
- My favorite kiss is the Nine/Rose kiss from "The Parting of the Ways." None other comes close.
- I may be lynched for this, but {ducks}, I don't like David Tennant's hair in series four. I just don't. It's too short, too spiky, just not as ... yeah, don't like. It's okay in series three, but do not want in series four. I ADORE it in series two. A-D-O-R-E it in series two. I almost like his hair, series two, as much as I like Donna. But series four? Yeah, just no.
-I don't care if they keep popping up after being exterminated once and for all: I don't think I'll ever get tired of the Daleks. E-V-E-R!
- "The Unquiet Dead" is one of my favorite episodes. In fact, I won't be surprised if when I'm done rewatching the whole series again that it's in the top five, if not top three. I really, really love it.
- I apologize in advance to Christopher Eccleston because for the first time in forever I'm actually acknowledging that even he can't overcome something. It's not his fault, but still ... even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor" line from "The Parting of the Ways." I keep hoping it will get better each time I watch it and I'll grin and glory in the romantic cheesiness, but no. It's just always groan-inducing cheese. Sigh. Not even the amazing Christopher Eccleston can save it.
- [verysmallvoice]I like the blue suit.[/verysmallvoice] I ADORE the brown pin-striped suit, but yeah ... [verysmallvoice]I like the blue suit.[/verysmallvoice]
- I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master. (I know! This one rivals the Jack/OT3 above for unpopularity.)
- Poorly-conceived/written character or not, I think the biggest problem with Martha is that compared to most other regular/recurring actors on this show, Freema Agyeman is just not that good. I like her, I think she's very personable and quite lovely. I simply don't think she's a strong enough actress to make Martha work as RTD likely envisioned her. I just find it difficult to believe that a man who is so amazingly wonderful at creating characters and writing such fabulous character arcs and motivations for them would mess up so with Martha Jones. Therefore, I think the fault in the character lies in Agyeman not able to deliver on RTD's vision. (Why do I feel guilty writing this? It's not like she'll ever read it. Sigh, I DO like her, I just ... well, you know.)
- I really, really loved Yvonne Hartman. I did.
So share your thoughts, your own opinions that might be a tad outside the norm. Will be fun to read. :D (I know some of my other Who icons are much more appropriate, but new Billie icon! Squee!! I had to use it.)
- I actually quite like "Love & Monsters." I wouldn't put it in my top ten, and I know it's both Doctor and Rose-lite, but I still enjoy it. I like the story, I like Elton and I think that it's a fabulous little mini Jackie story. Plus, I love the few moments we do get with the Doctor and Rose.
- Here's the biggie: I don't really care about Jack. I do not understand for the life of me why he is SUCH a huge part of fandom, why an entire other show was built around him, etc. He's handsome, but nothing to write home about in my book; he a decent actor, but nothing to write home about. And I don't get the whole great, fabulous, amazing friendship between the Doctor, Rose and Jack. They traveled together for what really amounted to one episode: "Boomtown." And sure, they had travels in between, and were all buddy-buddy and rah!rah!rah! in said "Boomtown," but Mickey fit in pretty nicely with those three and yet I don't see OT4 fics with them. I just don't get it.
On that note, I pretty much despise the OT3 thing with Doctor/Rose/Jack. I just ... ick, it gives me the ickies. Just yuck. The Doctor belongs with Rose. Rose belongs with the Doctor. Jack can have a raging hard-on for either one all he wants, but for me, it's all on him, and Rose is into the Doctor, and the Doctor is into Rose and if Jack were to attempt to insert himself in the mix, they'd be as squicked as I am.
So, yeah, that one was the biggie, the major, 'that is SOOOOOOOOOOO unpopular.' Moving along.
- Due to forms of character assassination ranging from mild to OHMYGOD!GET THE HELL AWAY FROM MY SHOW!!!!, I've found that I only love "Blink" by Moffat. I love some of the moments in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" and do adore the overall concept, but the episodes themselves rub me the wrong way in light of Rose's characterization and some of the Doctor stuff too. I think that "The Girl in the Fireplace" is a gorgeously written, conceived and acted episode ... but one that does not even REMOTELY fit character-arc wise in RTD's Who. The less said about "Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead" the better, other than that the only thing I liked about it was the alternate Donna-verse, but everything else? Meh to Noooo. "Blink," though? I loved. (Like lots of others, I know.)
- I've said this before and I know I'm not the only one, but I'll still add it: I love Ten, but I do love Nine just that little bit more.
- On that note, I think that Eccleston has more chemistry with Billie Piper than does David Tennant. (And on the chemistry note, I don't see anything but BFF chemistry between Piper and Tennant in real-life ... at all, nothing hinting at some underpinning of longing, etc.)
- Donna is not just my favorite companion (I'm sorry, Rose, I do adore you, but Donna is just ... Donna), Donna is my favorite character EVER on Who -- yes, I love her more than the Doctor (Nine or Ten). In fact, Donna Noble may be one of my top five favorite characters ever in ANY fandom. EVER! I love her so much.
- My favorite kiss is the Nine/Rose kiss from "The Parting of the Ways." None other comes close.
- I may be lynched for this, but {ducks}, I don't like David Tennant's hair in series four. I just don't. It's too short, too spiky, just not as ... yeah, don't like. It's okay in series three, but do not want in series four. I ADORE it in series two. A-D-O-R-E it in series two. I almost like his hair, series two, as much as I like Donna. But series four? Yeah, just no.
-I don't care if they keep popping up after being exterminated once and for all: I don't think I'll ever get tired of the Daleks. E-V-E-R!
- "The Unquiet Dead" is one of my favorite episodes. In fact, I won't be surprised if when I'm done rewatching the whole series again that it's in the top five, if not top three. I really, really love it.
- I apologize in advance to Christopher Eccleston because for the first time in forever I'm actually acknowledging that even he can't overcome something. It's not his fault, but still ... even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor" line from "The Parting of the Ways." I keep hoping it will get better each time I watch it and I'll grin and glory in the romantic cheesiness, but no. It's just always groan-inducing cheese. Sigh. Not even the amazing Christopher Eccleston can save it.
- [verysmallvoice]I like the blue suit.[/verysmallvoice] I ADORE the brown pin-striped suit, but yeah ... [verysmallvoice]I like the blue suit.[/verysmallvoice]
- I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master. (I know! This one rivals the Jack/OT3 above for unpopularity.)
- Poorly-conceived/written character or not, I think the biggest problem with Martha is that compared to most other regular/recurring actors on this show, Freema Agyeman is just not that good. I like her, I think she's very personable and quite lovely. I simply don't think she's a strong enough actress to make Martha work as RTD likely envisioned her. I just find it difficult to believe that a man who is so amazingly wonderful at creating characters and writing such fabulous character arcs and motivations for them would mess up so with Martha Jones. Therefore, I think the fault in the character lies in Agyeman not able to deliver on RTD's vision. (Why do I feel guilty writing this? It's not like she'll ever read it. Sigh, I DO like her, I just ... well, you know.)
- I really, really loved Yvonne Hartman. I did.
So share your thoughts, your own opinions that might be a tad outside the norm. Will be fun to read. :D (I know some of my other Who icons are much more appropriate, but new Billie icon! Squee!! I had to use it.)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-18 04:55 pm (UTC)even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor"
Nooooo, I love that line. It's so Nine, because he's that goofy/cheesy playing-at-being-a-man -- it's perfect, IMHO. I grin every time I watch it. :p
I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master.
I'll go even further than you: John Simm ruined DW S3.
Seriously. The whole Master storyline was odd and ill-conceived, and tonally really weird, and fandom was completely distracted by teh hawtness of Master/Doctor OTP!!!1111 to call it out for what it was: RTD's worst finale arc EVAH. Derek Jacobi as the Master would've eliminated about 65% of the problem. 3x12-3x13 (and 3x11, to an extent) had too many big personalities (DT, JS, JB) that plot became secondary/unimportant (to both RTD and the viewers :/ )
I can't lay Martha completely at FA's feet, though, because I'm not sure any actress could've pulled off how RTD wrote Martha. I always feel so duped when I think about it, because the Martha from 3x01 and the Martha from subsequent eps seem like two different people. That the minute Martha started traveling with the Doctor, she became a blithering idiot with a schoolgirl crush. And I just don't...get it. :/
(Yikes. For as much as I don't like a lot of S2 [saw "Fear Her" the other day... :shudders:], S3 was probably the worst season of the show. :x
But: agreed on the PotW kiss. :D
I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 1 ...
Date: 2008-08-19 05:04 pm (UTC)That's what it was, too. A lovely little nod to fandom, a gentle poke filled with love.
even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor"
Nooooo, I love that line. It's so Nine, because he's that goofy/cheesy playing-at-being-a-man -- it's perfect, IMHO. I grin every time I watch it. :p
Right, I grin. I shouldn't grin; I should swoon. That moment requires swooning, not a cheesy line. Yes, Nine goes for the cheese, but it just did NOT work for me there at all.
I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master.
I'll go even further than you: John Simm ruined DW S3.
Oh, I wouldn't go that far; I just think that the concept of TSotD and TLotTL were just bad, bad, bad ... especially wizened, wrinkly Doctor sitting out, all passive and totally lame, only to come back and cradle the dying Master in a case that simply seemed to design to give slashers a screencap to love for all time.
Seriously. The whole Master storyline was odd and ill-conceived, and tonally really weird, and fandom was completely distracted by teh hawtness of Master/Doctor OTP!!!1111 to call it out for what it was: RTD's worst finale arc EVAH.
Yeah! But that's not Simm's fault. It's RTD's.
Derek Jacobi as the Master would've eliminated about 65% of the problem. 3x12-3x13 (and 3x11, to an extent) had too many big personalities (DT, JS, JB) that plot became secondary/unimportant (to both RTD and the viewers :/ )
Oh, I don't agree at all. (Of course I don't think JB has a big personality at all. I don't get anything but meh on this guy. I just don't -- and that was even before I read his completely unprofessional and frankly stupid dissing of CE.) Big personalities can work together and create amazing stuff (DT and CT, for instance), it was the story, the concept, etc. There were some fabulous things in the final two eps, but it just fell apart and didn't hold together. You know how much I adore RTD, but this stinker's on him.
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 1 ...
Date: 2008-08-20 06:18 pm (UTC)...Technically, yes. Because RTD conceived the concept of a young(er), charismatic, snarky Master who was the evil foil for Ten. So, I guess it's John Simm's presence that ruined S3 -- which can be attributed both to RTD and the fact that Simm brings the manic a little too well (a fact the DW folks knew perfectly well -- if they saw ANY ep of LoM -- when they cast him). ;p
I do think JB has a big personality, though -- you don't get on Broadway/West End without having a big personality. :) And Jack has a big personality, too -- someone who boasts so vociferously about his sexual conquests would have to, IMHO. ;)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 1 ...
Date: 2008-08-20 11:38 pm (UTC)I know he gets cast, I know how Jack is written, I know how most of fandom sees him. I just don't get it. He's very, very meh to me. Almost bland. I'm just soooooo minority-girl on that one, I know.
I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
Date: 2008-08-19 05:08 pm (UTC)And this one I don't at all. I'm sorry, I just can't not believe that a more charismatic, better, less bland actress would have made us root for Martha, if not to get the Doctor -- since the whole "I wubs Rose foreva!" permeated him, but to get someone, something that would show her she was better than pining for this taken alien, but meanwhile, feeling so much for her. The concept of the character wasn't the greatest, but it was solid. She had motivation, meaning, reason behind what she did. We were never confused or complexed by things Martha was doing or saying, we just didn't care or were annoyed by it ... and I do lay that at the actress.
At some point, writers start writing FOR the way the actor plays a role, rather than the original concept.* RTD clearly envisioned a strong, stalwart woman who didn't live by emotions (the opposite of Rose actually), and was thrown for a loop for that before her arc finished with her taking back that strong side of herself, but with the added benefit of knowing how emotions can help make better decisions reliant not just on the brain. Look at the eps that RTD wrote of Martha:
- "Smith & Jones" ... Great Martha
- "Gridlock" ... Martha separated from the Doctor, believing in him, still off her game because of those pesky emotions, but doing what needed to be done
- "Utopia" ... KICK-ASS Martha, empathetic, smart, understanding, with the program
- "The Sound of the Drums/The Last of the Time Lords" ... Frankly, Martha was by far THE best thing in these two episodes, in my opinion. She did things I couldn't see either Rose or Donna doing. Martha has a different kind of steel and it so showed here. I loved her in these eps. (Her and Tom. Wah! I wanted to see Tom in TSE/JE!)
Then her later appearances ...
- "The Stolen Earth/Journey's End" ... Again, a kick-ass Martha, who is in control, smart, loyal, doing the right thing, her heart and her mind working together.
THIS is the Martha that RTD envisioned and these are her best appearances BY FAR (I think) in the series and these are ALL the ones that RTD wrote. The others, I think became based more on FA's take on the character which did not mesh with Rusty's vision. I just look at ALL of his characters and I don't blame him ... especially seeing the awesome in Martha so clearly when HE wrote her.
* Admittedly, some of these were definitely written before they saw some of FA's work, so I'll add that as RTD envisioned her, it was a tricky line to walk, but still ... sappy, wimpy Martha is not how RTD ever wrote her.
I always feel so duped when I think about it, because the Martha from 3x01 and the Martha from subsequent eps seem like two different people. That the minute Martha started traveling with the Doctor, she became a blithering idiot with a schoolgirl crush. And I just don't...get it. :/
Well, I think the above does help explain it. Other writers weren't writing RTD's Martha, they were writing FA's weaker, wimpy take on the character.
(Yikes. For as much as I don't like a lot of S2 [saw "Fear Her" the other day... :shudders:], S3 was probably the worst season of the show. :x
"Fear Her" really is bad -- except for the ADORABLE Doctor/Rose moments -- but yeah, I'll definitely go with S3 being the worst of the new Who. You blame John Simm for it? I blame (sorry) Freema Agyeman. She wasn't a strong enough actress to make Martha work ... and Martha SHOULD have worked.
But: agreed on the PotW kiss. :D
Of course! (I so have to make an icon of that, but it's so hard because of the dang golden light and bright light behind them. Urrggh! I haven't even seen an icon by anyone else of the kiss that works for me. I'll keep working on it though, off and on.)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
Date: 2008-08-20 06:32 pm (UTC)But...how could Martha not live by her emotions when in 3x02, they show her crushing on the Doctor? Maybe she didn't live by them, but she didn't make much of an effort to hide them.
I could buy it was FA's fault if the scripts seem to have Martha attempting to hide her crush or sublimate it or deny it. But they didn't. They had her waxing on about it in public -- practically to the Doctor himself. And there was no way, even if you had Catherine Tate herself playing Martha, that Martha wasn't going to come across as pathetic and sad -- especially given that we knew how the Doctor felt about Rose.
I just think the crush itself was a mistake to begin with. Could a better actress have given it more layers? Maybe. But the material doomed it to failure, IMHO. I still don't know what point it served, other than to either create sympathy or irritation (or both) towards Martha.
TWP's Jacob recently wrote "Martha fell in love with the god Doctor, not the man." I didn't see that at all. To me, they made no effort to distinguish Martha's feelings for the Doctor from Rose's feelings except whether or not they were reciprocated.
She did things I couldn't see either Rose or Donna doing.
And to me, they were COMPLETELY random and made no sense. Martha had spent the last 12 episodes (after 3x01) pining over the Doctor and being his sidekick, and suddenly now, she's got a brain of her own? I didn't get it. That was sloppy writing, IMHO. Martha came perilously close to Mary Sue territory in those eps. :/
Clearly, we have to agree to disagree on Martha. :) But I do think RTD realized the mistake he'd made with her character, and when he began writing her with no romantic feelings at all is when she became better (in S4). He should've stuck with that instinct in S3.
To me, Martha's failure was ultimately the writers' responsibility (and RTD's, since as the showrunner, he presumably looked over other writers' scripts).
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
Date: 2008-08-20 11:53 pm (UTC)But...how could Martha not live by her emotions when in 3x02, they show her crushing on the Doctor? Maybe she didn't live by them, but she didn't make much of an effort to hide them.
No, I wasn't clear. I meant ... BEFORE she met the Doctor. I got the impression that Martha had never really fell for someone before, but she DID fall for him. THAT was her arc, being overwhelmed by her emotions, before learning to use them for strength (as she did in the series finale -- there's no way a Martha who didn't love the Doctor would have been able to deal and do with what he asked of her).
I could buy it was FA's fault if the scripts seem to have Martha attempting to hide her crush or sublimate it or deny it. But they didn't. They had her waxing on about it in public -- practically to the Doctor himself.
Yeah, this continues with what I hadn't made clear. She wasn't used to her emotions on the surface like that, and so didn't know how to deal with them.
And there was no way, even if you had Catherine Tate herself playing Martha, that Martha wasn't going to come across as pathetic and sad -- especially given that we knew how the Doctor felt about Rose.
Ah, but remember, Martha didn't really get it. She only found out in "Utopia" what happened to Rose. She thought they had a bad break-up, Rose broke his heart and left him, and the logical side of Martha couldn't get why the Doctor would not just get over it. It was after "Utopia" that we saw Martha become stronger with the mind and heart working in unison.
I just think the crush itself was a mistake to begin with. Could a better actress have given it more layers? Maybe. But the material doomed it to failure, IMHO. I still don't know what point it served, other than to either create sympathy or irritation (or both) towards Martha.
I don't. At all. I think it was to show (a) the Doctor's love for Rose, (b) a different arc than Rose had and (c) show how a person who is all brains, could kinda become silly and stupid and lose it over an unexpected romantic affliction ... like the Doctor. And we saw Martha comes to term with it, which probably helped the Doctor comes to terms with his own issues, thus the lighter, happier Doctor after Martha.
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
Date: 2008-08-20 11:53 pm (UTC)I did totally. Martha wasn't in love with the Doctor at all; she was in love with the myth, totally. The man would have annoyed her silly.
To me, they made no effort to distinguish Martha's feelings for the Doctor from Rose's feelings except whether or not they were reciprocated.
Oh, and see I didn't see that at all. Rose didn't let him take himself seriously, Rose was always about the two of them, they were partners, they were two, a team. With Martha, she was wanting to impress the Doctor, wanting the Doctor to love her. She saw this mythical, amazing God-like creature and wanted to be apart of that. Look at how many times the Doctor almost let himself die (and it was a lot), and Martha never got it, never stopped; because the Doctor was above that. Rose never sat around waiting for the Doctor to save her, or talked about her feelings about this great, great man ... she did what had to be done. Martha treated him like he was better than. I could be misremembering, but while I know that both Rose and Donna defended humans to the Doctor and other aliens in front of him quite a bit, I don't think Martha ever did.
Martha had spent the last 12 episodes (after 3x01) pining over the Doctor and being his sidekick, and suddenly now, she's got a brain of her own? I didn't get it. That was sloppy writing, IMHO. Martha came perilously close to Mary Sue territory in those eps. :/
It made perfect sense. I did watch all of S3 in about two weeks, but still it made perfect sense. Once she realized that he was never going to love her, and then left, had her distance, met a real man (Tom) someone who she didn't see in this "aaaahhh!!!" light, she realized that it wasn't love love, it was a silly crush, but she still believed the Doctor was an amazing man and she loved him ... just not like that.
Clearly, we have to agree to disagree on Martha. :) But I do think RTD realized the mistake he'd made with her character, and when he began writing her with no romantic feelings at all is when she became better (in S4).
But it didn't happen just like that. We got a clear bridge in the finale when she gave her speech to him, when she called Tom up ... she got it. We saw it moving towards that after "Utopia" -- the first time she ever really heard him talk about Rose, and found out what happened, what separated them. And in her return, we had discussion about it between her and Donna, in regards to that she no longer did. It wasn't a dropped character arc, it was a finished character arc.
To me, Martha's failure was ultimately the writers' responsibility (and RTD's, since as the showrunner, he presumably looked over other writers' scripts).
Yeah, we disagree because I saw a perfectly legitimate arc play out over the whole season and then continue in her following appearances. I blame the actress.