Yup, they were doing it ...
Aug. 23rd, 2008 09:55 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
arabianSo, I've been convinced for a while now that the Doctor and Rose were definitely having sex in S2. (I even wrote a post up that referenced a few of my points behind the cut, but I was asking other opinions, I wasn't convinced myself. Now I am.) I know, I know ... it's Doctor Who, that doesn't happen on Who, or I know, I know ... the way they kissed in "Journey's End" proved that it hadn't happened before. Well, as for the latter, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation to that kiss that still makes the theory that they were going at it like bunnies work. As for it being Who, that's why it's kinda there in between the lines, because it's technically a "kid's show" and there are purists who don't want to go there. But there are definitely signs that point to that kind of relationship between them.
I think their relationship changed and became physically intimate after (big shock here!) "The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit." What they went through in that episode, before and after the separation, brought them to a new level, I think. First the "stuck with you" conversation. Yes, they were a little awkward and not quite saying what they meant, but it was obvious what was at the heart of their dialogue, and both were clearly thinking in the same direction. For Rose, it's not that big a leap that she could deal with them being stuck in one place, but the fact that the Doctor wasn't freaking out, but came across as in almost the same place as she? That was a huge sign, that as much as he loves the TARDIS and his life as a Time Traveler, being with Rose is enough that he's willing to even contemplate it.
After the separation, we had the first time the Doctor said "I love you," without saying it and then claimed belief in her over any and everything in the entire universe. For Rose, we had her insistence in not leaving, even if he was gone. She didn't care; she wanted to be wherever he was, even if it was just the memory of the last place he'd been. Emotionally, they both took giant leaps here, so a sexual relationship coming off the heels of that two-parter makes perfect sense. And after that episode, these are the little moments we got that led me to believe that, yes, they DID take that step.
- In "Fear Her," a small (if disgusting) thing, true, but the fact that (a) the Doctor casually, calmly holds out his hand, casually and calmly *expecting* Rose to spit chewed up gum into his hand, and (b) that Rose casually and calmly spits said chewed up gum into his hand. I mean, come on? Yes, they are very close. They are, but I couldn't imagine Donna doing that unless she really, really, really, REALLY had to ... and in this case, Rose didn't even have to one "really" have to do it. Yet, it was just a casual intimate moment between them that bespoke of her saliva being on his body not an uncommon occurrence.
- Cheating a bit, I know as it was a deleted scene, but in "Army of Ghosts," as the Doctor and Rose head towards Powell Estate (I assume), they simply hold hands. No rush, no emergency, no danger, no running from or towards danger. They're just two people in love walking along ... holding hands. I know that doesn't say "THEY ARE HAVING SEX!!!OMG!!!!," but tied in with everything else and the fact that it's such a casual, comfortable thing adds to the whole theory.
- One of the biggies ... "Doomsday." Anyone reading this knows exactly where I'm going here.
Of course, there's another interpretation as the comment came on the heels of "Well, you've still got Mr. Mickey then," but I can't imagine that a few weeks after he and Rose are cruelly separated that he would (a) automatically assume that she got it on with Mickey (or any other guy), (b) not be more than stunned, but rather peeved, annoyed, jealous, etc. This *IS* the Doctor about ROSE!.
So, no, I don't buy that he thought it was Mickey's. That would have garnered a different reaction from the Doctor, indeed. Instead, we got one of slightly being stunned and vaguely wistful response to Rose then giving him that look, before laughing. The dialogue and reactions from both the Doctor and Rose are too telling, in my opinion. And the fact that quite a few people did wonder if it was implying what they thought they possibly couldn't be implying ... which tells me it's quite likely that Rusty was cackling his evil laugh somewhere in glee knowing that people were thinking it. AND being the total Doctor/Rose OTP-shipper that he is, I can't help but think that he *did* intend for people to think that, knowing that they'd dismiss it because it's Who.
- Rose's top in the TARDIS console room in "The Runaway Bride." Yes, the point was that it was supposed to show Donna that there had been another female there giving rise to her kidnapping women fear, and keep the Dotor's angst alive and kicking. But ... her top? Why not a hoodie, or a brush, or some other female accoutrement that didn't scream, 'Hi! I undress in the TARDIS console room where the Doctor and I shag like bunnies!' Okay, okay, fine it doesn't scream that ... BUT, her top?!?! You don't leave your top casually slung about (other than in your bedroom) when you live with someone you don't have an intimate relationship with. So why would Rose's TOP be casually laying about the console room like that unless either she or the Doctor had pulled it off before shagging like bunnies?!?!?! See, just another small piece that fits.
- The choice of phrase the Doctor describes his relationship with Rose as to Martha in "Smith and Jones" when she asks him about who he travels with. It starts out described in a removed fashion as "guests" before rambling into a much more intimate comment about Rose specifically.
- Which brings us to "Turn Left" ... we have Rose's reaction to Donna's: "Were you and him ...?" which while wasn't a ringing cry of 'hell yeah!,' neither was it a denial. At all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it actually leaned more in the direction of 'yes, we were' as opposed to 'no, it wasn't like that.' If they WEREN'T together (hah! I wasn't even thinking of the above paragraph, but merely trying to come up with another way of saying 'weren't shagging like bunnies,' and my brain automatically filled in "weren't together" -- see!?!?!?), why didn't Rose just do the slight head shake, laugh, look-down in slight wistful, 'no' sigh that would have easily, no ambiguity there, answer that question? You know why? BECAUSE THEY WERE! Uh huh.
It should be noted that of all of the episodes I referenced above to "prove" my theory, all but "Fear Her" was written by Russell T. Davies. Uh huh.
Finally, back to the kiss in "Journey's End," that kiss coming like it did didn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been, well, you know, and thus the surprise and shock of her pulling him to her like that. Simply it implied that the Doctor had never said the words before -- which really wouldn't come as a surprise from Mr. Euphemism-boy ("Does it need saying?" *Oh, Doctor*). After all, they went right into each other's arms, kissing away like they'd had practice -- and it'd been a really long time since Cassandra, and it was, well, Cassandra! so I'm not counting it.
So, unless we are somehow proven elsewise through canon -- though, how that would ever come up now?? -- all of the above signs, along with their general air about each other, says to me that they were indeed "together," shagging like bunnies, pick your euphemism and nothing in canon disputes that belief if you're not inclined against it. Which I'm not.
I think their relationship changed and became physically intimate after (big shock here!) "The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit." What they went through in that episode, before and after the separation, brought them to a new level, I think. First the "stuck with you" conversation. Yes, they were a little awkward and not quite saying what they meant, but it was obvious what was at the heart of their dialogue, and both were clearly thinking in the same direction. For Rose, it's not that big a leap that she could deal with them being stuck in one place, but the fact that the Doctor wasn't freaking out, but came across as in almost the same place as she? That was a huge sign, that as much as he loves the TARDIS and his life as a Time Traveler, being with Rose is enough that he's willing to even contemplate it.
After the separation, we had the first time the Doctor said "I love you," without saying it and then claimed belief in her over any and everything in the entire universe. For Rose, we had her insistence in not leaving, even if he was gone. She didn't care; she wanted to be wherever he was, even if it was just the memory of the last place he'd been. Emotionally, they both took giant leaps here, so a sexual relationship coming off the heels of that two-parter makes perfect sense. And after that episode, these are the little moments we got that led me to believe that, yes, they DID take that step.
- In "Fear Her," a small (if disgusting) thing, true, but the fact that (a) the Doctor casually, calmly holds out his hand, casually and calmly *expecting* Rose to spit chewed up gum into his hand, and (b) that Rose casually and calmly spits said chewed up gum into his hand. I mean, come on? Yes, they are very close. They are, but I couldn't imagine Donna doing that unless she really, really, really, REALLY had to ... and in this case, Rose didn't even have to one "really" have to do it. Yet, it was just a casual intimate moment between them that bespoke of her saliva being on his body not an uncommon occurrence.
- Cheating a bit, I know as it was a deleted scene, but in "Army of Ghosts," as the Doctor and Rose head towards Powell Estate (I assume), they simply hold hands. No rush, no emergency, no danger, no running from or towards danger. They're just two people in love walking along ... holding hands. I know that doesn't say "THEY ARE HAVING SEX!!!OMG!!!!," but tied in with everything else and the fact that it's such a casual, comfortable thing adds to the whole theory.
- One of the biggies ... "Doomsday." Anyone reading this knows exactly where I'm going here.
- Doctor: You've still got Mr. Mickey, then?
Rose: There's five of us now. Mum, dad, Mickey ... and the baby.
Doctor: (Slightly stunned) You're not ...?
Rose: No. (Laughing) It's mum.
Of course, there's another interpretation as the comment came on the heels of "Well, you've still got Mr. Mickey then," but I can't imagine that a few weeks after he and Rose are cruelly separated that he would (a) automatically assume that she got it on with Mickey (or any other guy), (b) not be more than stunned, but rather peeved, annoyed, jealous, etc. This *IS* the Doctor about ROSE!.
So, no, I don't buy that he thought it was Mickey's. That would have garnered a different reaction from the Doctor, indeed. Instead, we got one of slightly being stunned and vaguely wistful response to Rose then giving him that look, before laughing. The dialogue and reactions from both the Doctor and Rose are too telling, in my opinion. And the fact that quite a few people did wonder if it was implying what they thought they possibly couldn't be implying ... which tells me it's quite likely that Rusty was cackling his evil laugh somewhere in glee knowing that people were thinking it. AND being the total Doctor/Rose OTP-shipper that he is, I can't help but think that he *did* intend for people to think that, knowing that they'd dismiss it because it's Who.
- Rose's top in the TARDIS console room in "The Runaway Bride." Yes, the point was that it was supposed to show Donna that there had been another female there giving rise to her kidnapping women fear, and keep the Dotor's angst alive and kicking. But ... her top? Why not a hoodie, or a brush, or some other female accoutrement that didn't scream, 'Hi! I undress in the TARDIS console room where the Doctor and I shag like bunnies!' Okay, okay, fine it doesn't scream that ... BUT, her top?!?! You don't leave your top casually slung about (other than in your bedroom) when you live with someone you don't have an intimate relationship with. So why would Rose's TOP be casually laying about the console room like that unless either she or the Doctor had pulled it off before shagging like bunnies?!?!?! See, just another small piece that fits.
- The choice of phrase the Doctor describes his relationship with Rose as to Martha in "Smith and Jones" when she asks him about who he travels with. It starts out described in a removed fashion as "guests" before rambling into a much more intimate comment about Rose specifically.
- Martha: Is there a crew, like a navigator and stuff? Where is everyone?
Doctor: Just me.
Martha: All on your own?
Doctor: Well, sometimes I have guests. I mean, some friends traveling alongside me. I had ... it was recently ... a friend of mine. Rose, her name was. Rose ... and ... we were together.
- Which brings us to "Turn Left" ... we have Rose's reaction to Donna's: "Were you and him ...?" which while wasn't a ringing cry of 'hell yeah!,' neither was it a denial. At all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it actually leaned more in the direction of 'yes, we were' as opposed to 'no, it wasn't like that.' If they WEREN'T together (hah! I wasn't even thinking of the above paragraph, but merely trying to come up with another way of saying 'weren't shagging like bunnies,' and my brain automatically filled in "weren't together" -- see!?!?!?), why didn't Rose just do the slight head shake, laugh, look-down in slight wistful, 'no' sigh that would have easily, no ambiguity there, answer that question? You know why? BECAUSE THEY WERE! Uh huh.
It should be noted that of all of the episodes I referenced above to "prove" my theory, all but "Fear Her" was written by Russell T. Davies. Uh huh.
Finally, back to the kiss in "Journey's End," that kiss coming like it did didn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been, well, you know, and thus the surprise and shock of her pulling him to her like that. Simply it implied that the Doctor had never said the words before -- which really wouldn't come as a surprise from Mr. Euphemism-boy ("Does it need saying?" *Oh, Doctor*). After all, they went right into each other's arms, kissing away like they'd had practice -- and it'd been a really long time since Cassandra, and it was, well, Cassandra! so I'm not counting it.
So, unless we are somehow proven elsewise through canon -- though, how that would ever come up now?? -- all of the above signs, along with their general air about each other, says to me that they were indeed "together," shagging like bunnies, pick your euphemism and nothing in canon disputes that belief if you're not inclined against it. Which I'm not.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-24 08:40 am (UTC)I think he was a Nine/Rose shipper, but not Ten/Rose. Don't get why.
but then he decided he wanted to add his own original characters to it, to make it more his own or something, and thus Reinette and the whole mess with her and River Song and whatever happened.
It's like once David took over, he decided that the Doctor had to be a free agent available for a chick of the week. I mean, S1 he referred to the Doctor and Rose as a love story, and TEC/TDD -- even with its flaws -- shows that. And intellectually he still got that (having said that Rose would have been PISSED had Reinette actually joined them), but emotionally he just didn't care at all anymore, and decided to ignore it.
I have very low hopes for when he takes over.
Alas, so do I.
To the point where I might not even watch.
I'm going to give it a few episodes, because I DO love the show.
What is it about him and wanting the Doctor to find love (even if it's only in the sense that it's coming with River Song) with someone other than Rose?
I have no clue, BUT, I don't think we'll see RS again because after all we know how it ends and it's sounding more and more like it WON'T be David -- small things here and there -- and if there's an Eleven, that means he CAN'T tell that story as it was written (because RS recognized him, as in Ten, as the Doctor). Plus, it will just be easier if it's Eleven, with the way Rusty ended things with the Doctor losing the love of his life to, erm, himself, he can be content intellectually that she (and sorta of he) will have that happily-ever-after, but bitterness could take over and in the new personality of Eleven could be repressed to become a man-whore. (Which is how I sooo think Moffat envisions the Doctor now). So, Rusty did really lay the groundwork to even explain should Moffat continue to write the Doctor as an asshole (as he did in areas of his last couple of episodes). And honestly, even if it is David, his Ten totally has that bitter/asshole side of it, so it works with Ten or Eleven. I just would prefer Eleven because I associate Nine and Ten with Rose, and thus would make it easier to accept.
Idiotic. I mean, it's one thing for it to be like with River Song, 'cause then it's not happening right now and it could technically be years and year - to the point where it won't even be onscreen - and because he didn't have Rose at the time, waiting for him. But Reinette? Yeah. Me no likey.
Neither work for me, at all, unless I consider her a companion like Donna. And THAT works for me, fine.
I think that with Reinette, one of the main things was just that - really bad timing.
It was TOTALLY timing. Had that episode taken place as ep 6 (after AoL/WW3 with Mickey coming along) in S1, it would have made PERFECT sense. Absolutely perfect sense in every way because we would have had the aspect of the Doctor pushing Rose away, but it wouldn't be to the degree where he didn't seem to give a flying fig newton about her feelings. But where it came in the series? Not at all. Actually AFTER Aol/WW3 is the ONLY place it would have worked.
(And thanks. :) I really appreciate it. They're so cute and I was really sad not to see that scene in the Confidential or elsewhere.)
You're welcome, and yeah, it would have been adorable to actually see on film.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-25 02:31 pm (UTC)Maybe he just felt that now that they were sure the show was a total hit, he could be freer with the Doctor or something. But it didn't fit with the character at all, and it's really weird to think that he shipped - even if only to a small degree - Nine/Rose but not Ten/Rose.
I personally am going to read the summaries (as detailed as possible) before I even think about watching the episodes. This, to prevent unpleasant surprises and also, if I read about something Ten/Other shippery, I can always pretend I didn't see it - if I see it on screen, it's more real. Childish perhaps, but damnit, I don't care. :P
I think my biggest problem with actually Reinette wasn't that she was a love interest for the Doctor - it was that it was pushed-pushed-pushed that she was a love interest for the Doctor. Because they only had 40-ish minutes in the whole episode, and not all of those were focused on the Doctor and Reinette. While Rose and the Doctor fell in love more naturally, it's like Moffat just rushed through the whole thing and it just felt wrong. And watching it again - though, honestly, I never really do - it'd feel like it was obvious she'd never last beyond the one episode, because of that rushiness in their so called love story.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-27 01:22 pm (UTC)Well, first of all, it's got to be WITH Ten because Moffat made the point of RS having recognized THIS Doctor, just thinking his eyes were older, etc. As for her coming back period, it would be stupid, first of all, because we KNOW her complete story. We know how it ends and because we didn't spend 4 years watching the build-up of the story, we won't go into it caring about the "tragedy" of it all. Furthermore, if we do ... well, I fear for Moffat's DW even more because it shows completely that he'll put his own ego before what works for the show. Because, again, even taking the shippers out of the equation who hated the episode on that level alone, overall it just got a 'meh' response and while I do really like Alex Kingston, the character did NOT work, nor did she mesh well with Tennant at all.
Maybe he just felt that now that they were sure the show was a total hit, he could be freer with the Doctor or something. But it didn't fit with the character at all, and it's really weird to think that he shipped - even if only to a small degree - Nine/Rose but not Ten/Rose.
Or maybe he just liked Piper with Eccleston a LOT more than her with Tennant? Who knows? But he was aware of it, so I have no clue. I mean, the end of his Nine two-parter basically had the Doctor staking his claim on Rose as "his!" and he and Rose dancing around the TARDIS, and then his episode with Ten basically had Ten ignoring Rose's existence for the most part and by his actions, basically saying 'Okay, Mickey ... she's available!" (Yes, yes, I know there was much more to each episode, but you get where I'm coming from ...)
I personally am going to read the summaries (as detailed as possible) before I even think about watching the episodes. This, to prevent unpleasant surprises and also, if I read about something Ten/Other shippery, I can always pretend I didn't see it - if I see it on screen, it's more real. Childish perhaps, but damnit, I don't care. :P
Hmm, if it's Ten, I may do that. I don't know. I WANT to watch the show, but I don't want Rose/Doctor shat all over, and again, I think Rusty set it up that even if there is a love interest, or chick of the week, it will play as the Doctor desperatly trying to cover up the pain over what he's lost, what the other him is having, so I'll see.
I think my biggest problem with actually Reinette wasn't that she was a love interest for the Doctor - it was that it was pushed-pushed-pushed that she was a love interest for the Doctor. Because they only had 40-ish minutes in the whole episode, and not all of those were focused on the Doctor and Reinette. While Rose and the Doctor fell in love more naturally, it's like Moffat just rushed through the whole thing and it just felt wrong. And watching it again - though, honestly, I never really do - it'd feel like it was obvious she'd never last beyond the one episode, because of that rushiness in their so called love story.
Oh, I'm at the point where I just hated all of it, period. Grrr. It was just SO WRONG on every level. It really was.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-30 03:19 pm (UTC)And I could have a lot of things to say about Moffat and what you've mentioned here, but honestly, we'd just be talking in circles about how much we dislike him/his odd Doctor/Rose shipping views/Fireplace Girl etc, so lets just say that we don't like it, we're worried about the future of Who and go read some good Doctor/Rose fanfiction, yes?